The grout joint will be prone to flex failure and eventual water intrusion. Actually legally you have to allow them one attempt. It is also very important to make sure the weep holes are the lowest point of the waterproofing on the shower pan. A conventional shower build has the liner buried at least an inch below the tile with a layer of deck mud. The bonded waterproof membrane is installed on top of the mortar bed and solid backing and tied into the drain, with tile installed over the membrane using thin-set mortar. I also don't think the bench is properly constructed for a wet area. Here we are 2 1/2 years later and we noticed water damage to baseboard molding outside of tub. Can anyone help to confirm this before I go drilling into my shower pan? Assuming Grout, Tile, and Sealers Alone Make a Waterproof Shower, Forgetting to Calculate the Proper Amount of Slope for the Drain. In regards to the pre-slope, the hot mop guy establishes that with the drypack mortar which is the first step before his tar and paper. Trowel-applied membranes may also incorporate reinforcing mesh at corners and joints, or over the entire surface. I spray it on the shower floors maybe every 4-6 weeks. DSapone knows that the quality of waterproofing is what counts so we count on a dry clean surface. Forgetting to do a Flood Test before installing tile. If you really think about it, though, what difference does it make if the holes are blocked with the deck mortar or not? I can tell you that those weep holes "weep" quite a bit of water. Thus, the membrane is applied entirely at the surface, with all water directed into the top of the drain. Protect the weep holes with bits of broken tile or gravel before putting up the new tiled floor to prevent mortar from getting in them and sealing them. Cindy-- I was talking about plumbing weepholes-- not ones in the door track. Back to problem solving, would these possibilities work without going the route of a total tear out? - Hire a contractor if you have any doubts about your abilities. Manufacturers should be consulted regarding the water vapor permeance of their products to help determine suitability in specific applications, such as steam showers. Can this problem be handled from "behind" by removing the drywall from the back of the shower wall so the tiles don't have to be removed? A solution to this incompatibility came in the form of drains that feature integrated bonding flanges. Tile and sealed grout is water resistant, but without the proper preparation and installation, water will find its way around them in no time. Pics inside. Heres what you can read next: Are Linear Shower Drains Better? I know they butted the new CB up to the old CB and put another piece of CB behind the seam of the old and new boards and "waterproofed" the whole thing with some sort of black tar/paint. Designed for use with LATICRETE 1776 Grout Admix or water. There is zero trying to fix what you have here this isn't a couple of misaligned tiles. The wall tiles are hand glazed and have a lot of "movement". After a number of problems, I began documenting and photographing the stages of the work done which is how I determined they used unsanded grout for the final grouting. I don't know how it was waterproofed. I appreciate all the advice. If the drain gets blocked, you might need to pull up tiles and use a scraper. This is in addition to the weepholes in the track of the door frame. But I wouldn't do that until after running water into the drywall bucket. Tiled showers are beautiful, durable, and hygienic when designed and installed properly. Yes they might be hard workers but they don't have the training or even the ability to read instructions. When LATICRETE 1600 Unsanded Grout is mixed with LATICRETE 1776 Grout Admix, it eliminates shading and blotching caused by minerals and organic particles commonly found in domestic water, and inhibits the growth of stain-causing mold and mildew in grout joint with Microban antimicrobial product protection. Had this house built 9 years ago and have ripped the master shower caulk out three times now because of mold growing behind it. Thus, simply selecting a membrane that meets the requirements of the ANSI A118.10 standard for a steam shower application is not enough. Traditional drains are designed to clamp to pan liners below the mortar bed, while bonded waterproof membranes are topically applied. This is the area where I believe the problem lies and is the area where the old and new CB meet behind the tile. The circle started out to be about 10 in diameter. If I had chosen the same glaze in an arabesque it would have been over the top. It's more about not being able to accurately diagnose it in a forum, even with pics. It depends on the type of shower and the type of drain. My rationale is that its only been a month and since the dampened tiles formed an almost perfect circle, that tells me my slope is working. Thank you Jim. Ok, I just needed a refresher on the hot mop. Simple Green Pro 5 will kill mold, mildew, fungus, viruses, bacteria. Could this where water is breaching the waterproof membrane? Did the installer do anything to stop the flexing? I read elsewhere on Houzz that some installers like to increase the floor slope to ensure proper water drainage with this type of tile. Any water absorbed by the grout will drain behind the tile (between the tile and the cement board which is coated with the waterproof membrane) then drip over the flange of the basin, run along the edges of the basin behind the tile and run into the basin through the weep holes. At that time I tried to tell the contractor there was a problem as evidenced by the wet grout and he disagreed. Another all too common mistake is to penetrate the pan liner by using nails to fasten backerboard panels to the curb. I think there may be muliple problems. In A Waterproof Base for Tub Tiling, we touched on the topic ofweep holes in a shower pan or tub flange. Pan liners are not designed to allow for the direct application of ceramic or stone tile. We might be able to do something about it. They allow water that enters them to trickle down into the pipe. Crushed stone or tile is placed around the weep holes of the drain to prevent blockage before installing the mortar bed. Without that preslope as I have explained it, the water will more than likely pool, and cause problems much as you are experiencing. Contractors never caulked tiled area behind shower door frame so it was assumed that the water was penetrating at that point. This way the grout joint connecting the new tile work to old tile work does not fall directly over the seam between the new cement board and old cement board. I'd be looking at one of two things-- either the plumbing, or the bench (good call, brewbeer). JavaScript is disabled. A proper test is conducted by temporarily plugging the drain below the weep holes using a flexible rubber ball and filling the shower with water.The drain must be plugged below the weep holes to allow water to flow underneath the tile and not escape through the weep holes. There is no issue of water accumulation in the grout, so you dont have to worry about something like weep holes. Here are 4 standouts, Personnaliser mon exprience l'aide de cookies, Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Outdoor Lighting & Audio/Visual Specialists, 11 Reasons to Love Wall-to-Wall Carpeting Again, Hemp, Hemp, Hooray! See if you can see any separation between the grout and the tile edge. The rest of the grout is dry as a bone and water beads up on it. If the shower is leaking outside or underneath, then we can perform a shower pan test. If you want waterproof bathroom tile in the shower, be aware of these common mistakes. Talk about making a problem worse!! HomeISD.com is your one-stop to all things home decor and DIY home projects. These membranes include sheet-applied products, which are bonded to the substrate with thin-set mortar or other adhesives, and trowel-applied products, which are spread over the substrate and allowed to dry/cure. Sewer gas from shower drain and water pooling on tiles. The traditional method for installing tiled shower assemblies creates what can be described as a water in/ water out system. What purpose would they serve??? Weeks if need be, ans sealing the tile and grout to the max. Now, if the weep holes were not drilled out in the casting that's a different story, or if they were blocked by something non-porous like excess tar. A common way for tile setters to protect the weep holes is by placing crushed tile or pea gravel around the drain with a donut hole of brown paper to cover the gravel. I just can't see that much water getting thru that one joint, unless it's completely empty. Additionally, weep holes are crucial for allowing water to escape the pan through the secondary drain.Without correctly installing the shower pan, it will hold water and potentially cause leaks and efflorescence. Regardless of the waterproofing method chosen (hot mopping, pvc/cpe membranes, etc.) If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. Actually, pouring water from a bucket on the bench showed no leaks, but pouring water from a bucket on the areas of grout that continue to absorb water produces a leak. The shower floor was finished with 2 hex marble pieces, grouted and sealed. The only problem would be aesthetic, being that you wouldn't be able to run mesh tape, and the grout on that seam might crack. Around twenty years ago, manufacturers introduced bonded waterproof membranes, which are adhered to the substrate and allow for the direct application of tile. Bill,I just sent you an email. Houzz Pro: One simple solution for contractors and design pros. Does sound slightly more hollow higher up than at the base, but not sure. Is that proper wet-area construction? So, will drilling it out 1-2 inches deepdo the trick? They are also difficult to diagnose. The weepholes are part of their standard tile shower installation with this type of base. Can you post some other pictures? Due to the shower pan retaining water because there is no pre-slope or waterproofing ontop of the mud bed, moisture starts the mold and mildew growth under the tile corners. Weep holes can be particularly beneficial for tiled showers. Water should not transfer through a thickness of grout that quickly. I'm afraid the entire process will be out of my no-attention-to-detail husband's reach. Can anyone tell me what is the proper repair to prevent more problems? Just say the word. Initially we thought it couldn't possibly be the tile and we thought water was escaping the shower door and being wicked up by the baseboard molding. Pan liners may consist of metals such as lead and copper or plastics such as polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and chlorinated polyethylene (CPE). The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Applicable standard: ANSI A118.7. Some linear shower drains dont have weep holes at the waterproofing locking flange level. So far, no mold but it is moist back there. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. At this point, I'm also concerned that I may not be able to find matching tile. The way the builder explained it (before we even moved into the house and before any water problems) was that grout is porus and, even if sealed, it will absorb water. Go ahead and shoot me an email. Also, the front corner areas where there was no flange were not properly caulked before the tile was set so the water that was getting behind the tile overflowed to the front of the curb. Sorry. I have a feeling that there may be something else going on there, as well. Je peux rejeter les cookies non essentiels en cliquant sur Grer mes prfrences . It begins with the installation of a mortar bed that is sloped to the weep holes in the drain. This process will ensure that the waterproofing starts now above the tile preventing water penetrating past the surface. Fill your floor with a couple of inches of water and see if it goes down through the weep holes. Then tile was set on top of that layer the same day. Those are all good signs and if they also sealed the seams where the Denshield boards meets (hard to say for sure in the pics) then there doesn't appear to be any real concerns with the construction of the shower. The minimum performance criteria for bonded waterproof membranes are established in the ANSI A118.10 standard. Thanks, but that's definately not what I wanted to hear. I think I may remove the rest of the molding on the outside of the shower and see what it looks like back there. The availability of bonded waterproof membranes has revolutionized tiled shower installation. These products allow the installer to produce a sealed system, in contrast to the water in/ water out system described previously. DO NOT LET THEM TRY AND FIX THEY ARE NOT CAPABLE END OF STORY. Water vapor permeance is a measure of how quickly water vapor is transmitted through a material and is determined according to the ASTM E96 Standard Test Method for Water Vapor Transmission of Materials. Since the tile layer itself is not waterproof, moisture will infiltrate the mortar bed. If you catch it early enough, it will just be a drywall repair. The original fiberglass shower pan did flex and was not set in concrete. One look at that job site an the $50 saw and you can tell these are no pro tile layers. My orig comments in regards to the tile was to determine what kind of tile before making the assumption they were laid wrong. Rose, Expert insights on techniques and principles. It's a first in, first out sort of system, constantly flushing itself out. I would prefer a tiled floor over a fiberglass pan, but you are right Cindy, it is more money. Go on John Bridge and find an educated Licensed Pro in your area that shows up with his or her crew to do the work. I'm not convinced that your weep holes are clogged so much as I believe you are dealing with the nature of the marble and mud base as installed. This Superplant May Be Legal Again in the USA, Late Again? I wonder if the flaw is in the design of the shower pan? Here is what the Laticrete website says for the product they used: LATICRETE 1600 Unsanded GroutFor dense, durable grout joints less than 1/8" (3 mm). The prime example of this is the steam shower. But what it all comes down to is half-arsed repairs are just that. The higher the vapor permeance, the less effective a material is at slowing vapor transmission. Which tile to choose for the shower wall? I probably have pictures of it being built. Deck mud is designed to flush itself out constantly. Can you not use this same tile for the shower walls, maybe vertically for interest (and so that you can insert a couple rows of textured white tiles or some other interesting accent)? Aggravating to have to be the one doing all this research when we are the paying customers. You can see how dark (wet) the grout is above the weephole. Is that a first name? let's forget about the tiles and even their installation. The way the builder explained it was that grout is porus and, even if sealed, it will absorb water. - Never use nails or screws to attach cement boards to shower walls. If I caulk over the weep holes, I would imagine that much more water would leak out from behind the baseboard molding and wall. This increases the potential for efflorescence and mold growth within the system. You can clearly tell this by how they are using the products that were probably supplied to them. They are hired dirt cheap and that is why they lack the training and tools to do a proper job. All I can think is that they tiled directly over the lip.. How deep would I need to go? Im pretty certain my weep holes are blocked with mortar, heres the scenario: Our shower is complete (new construction) with a hot-mopped pan and cast iron flange. Drain weep holes can be blocked with the presence of lime and calcium in water supplies. The only thing I can't figure out is that when I sealed the grout, it doesn't really soak up the sealant, but when I pour water on it, the grout really changes color and looks wet. These were our "weep" holes. I really dont want to break up the surface at this point. Read on to find out more about why they are necessary and in what cases they are not. I see posts like this and I honestly feel horrible for you. How ironic that I origianally wanted a tile floor and my builder said, "we typically use the shower pans because they provide better waterproofing." As for the sealer they were talking about grout release as epoxy or urethane grout haze can be difficult to remove especially if you can't read the instructions to know it isn't applied like standard grout. When the grout was removed, could they have damaged the waterproofing?{{gwi:1488697}}{{gwi:1488698}}{{gwi:1488700}}. Can a person go too deep, or is deeper better in this case. En cliquant sur Accepter , j'accepte l'utilisation des cookies telle qu'elle est dcrite plus en dtail dans la Politique d'Utilisation des Cookies de Houzz. I'm so confused..I just want it fixed. In fact, after two consecutive days of none-use, the damp circle did not decrease appreciably. You may have something as similar as a leak where the shower head arm is threaded into the brass union located in the wall. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page. It is important to have the weep holes in the shower drain assembly. This installation prevents water from traveling past the top of the mud-bed preventing leaks. Try turning on the shower, but capture all the water in a drywall bucket or something similar. it is essential to make sure the weep holes are kept clear. It only dries out after days of not using the shower, but it is still discolored when "dry." And considering your choice of material, and method of install; I would think you might be a bit less surprised by the results. - You're not telling me anything I didn't really already know, which is why that contractor is no longer allowed in my house. Oh okay looks like there is a tile flange going around that base (good news). We're not around right now. No offense, but your contractor's a moron. Take a real good look at the grout line that shows wetting. I have also found that the "weep hole" issue is hotly debated. Your feet, wallet and downstairs neighbors may be nodding. Thanks much. If you read my first post, I describe how the damp mable tiles create a "damp circle". Thus, a mortar bed must be installed to provide load distribution and a bonding surface for the floor tile. It was hard to direct the water away from the grout joints that absorb water, but overall they didn't get that much water. Specially designed weep hole protectors are available for purchase at some tile stores. This article will present the two primary methods for installing tiled showers, the traditional method and the bonded waterproof method, and explain how each functions to manage water and prevent leaks and mold growth. I know this option would be very expensive. If you think about it, If theyscreened the holes to begin with, the pebbles, or broken tiles would only give you about 1 to 1.5 of opening anyway. - M.K. There are weepholes where the contractor did not caulk between the tile and the shower pan. Look at how they used the waterproofing or how they did that curb and corners or the pan membrane. The shower should be constructed to prevent water from getting behind the water proofing layer. [Linear vs. Point Drain], The Types of Shower Drains [7 Types and Styles], How to Tile a Shower Floor without a Pan? Theres no cutting corners when it comes to installing shower tile. Now I am not too familiar with a hot mop ( I am Eastern) but here we do a preslope on the subfloor, install the pvc or (old school) lead or copper liner then do the sloped mud job ontop of that. If there are multiple leaks, then that would explain it. I would guess that the water will find it's way through the mudYou did create a preslope under the hot mopped pan; correct? Our award-winning designers offer expert advice for luxurious natural stone in the shower. By looking at the pics, it DOES look like the spot where the new tile meets the old is the culprit.